Wikipedia talk:Wikipedians

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Proposal: merge WP:Who writes Wikipedia? into this page[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The pages address the same topic with roughly the same level of detail, so we ought to WP:CONSOLIDATE them. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Support as nom. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose the two pages have different aims and styles. "Who writes Wikipedia?" is largely unreferenced, but appears to me to be more accurate and up to date. If they merged, I expect the content at "Wikipedians", with much referenced content using very old sources, would be dominant. Probably a net loss. Johnbod (talk) 21:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    We tried this 5 or so years ago to no avail. I will look back on where I got the data for what I added to Who writes Wikipedia? add the sources and update them if possible. That said this page here is very outdated and needs help before anyone would merge the data.--Moxy 🍁 21:52, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    The #1 thing we need to do to get these pages up to date is consolidate them, so that our energies aren't split maintaining a bunch of duplicate pages. An update can be done while merging them, but that won't happen unless we agree on the principle that they ought to be merged in the first place. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 10:20, 24 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support Who writes Wikipedia? Wikipedians. 🐔 Chicdat ChickenDatabase 12:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose, these are two different articles and approaches to the subject, per Johnbod. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support Merge under the title WP:Who writes Wikipedia?. This title is much simpler for newer Wikipedians (of course with all data gathered and organized). --CaeserKaiser (talk) 21:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support This will make it easier for new wikipedia editors to learn more about Wikipedia. It makes sense to merge. BGzest (talk) 09:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support They cover the same topic, no need to have separate pages for this. Merging and updating things makes perfect sense. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose pages serve different purposes and removing the other one defeats that Naleksuh (talk) 02:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support per nom.EPIC STYLE (LET'S TALK) 03:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support I think two articles are describing same things in base. -- Wendylove (talk) 02:39, 8 January 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


(moved at the proper place from elsewhere) Lembit Staan (talk) 21:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Previously launched discussions at Wikipedia_talk:Administration, Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability will continue at this central location.

According to Merriam-Webster Thesaurus and Wiktionary, "Contributor" and "Editor" are not synonyms! Until my recent contributions on Wikipedia (second sentence), Wikipedia:About and Help:Your_first_article (first sentence), there were virtually no mention at all on Wikipedia that a contributor is an editor, not to mention Wikipedians... Clearly, there was a need for such a clarification as my bold edits were not immediately reverted... Still many long-time editors assume that everyone knows "contributor=editor=Wikipedian", as if it was common knowledge or even common sense on Wikipedia. It wouldn't surprise me if more people than we think believe that "Wikipedians" are "Wikipedia users" and thus anyone using Wikipedia.

My proposition for "Information" and "Policies and Guidelines" pages (that mixes terms) is to reach consensus to:

1. publish "contributor=editor=Wikipedian" (to educate readers, as on Wikipedia)
2. or standardize the wording by using only the already majoritary term (from experience, 99% chance to be "editors")

Objective is to improve readability, as newcomers and readers may think: "another name"="another status". — Antoine Legrand (talk) 18:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

If, as you say, "contributor" and "editor" are not synonyms, then we can't say they are always the same, or prohibit the use of a word that might be best in a given context. Station1 (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Let's be clear, I do not say that "contributor" and "editor" are not synonyms, but Merriam-Webster Thesaurus and Wiktionary do! But effectively, as a newcomer in the beginning, I read a lot of different pages in Project namespace and I got "confused" because of the random and sometimes inconsistent use of "editor" and "contributor". At that time, I had read absolutely nowhere that "editor"="contributor" and I even consulted Merriam-Webster! Finally after digging everywhere, I found the answer here: Wikipedia:Who writes Wikipedia?Antoine Legrand (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Copied from Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#contributor=editor - clarification required: Lembit Staan (talk) 22:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I googled "wikipedia editor contributor" and found this page: Wikipedia:Wikipedians, which should explain "editors" and "contributors". Maybe you could check if that page needs improvement and link to that page? Betty (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Contributor ≠ editor. Editors contributors.
This is because you can "contribute" (e.g., uploading images, operating a bot) without "editing". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:42, 11 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
However that page just makes the confusion worse: "Wikipedians (Wikipedia's editors and contributors) are the volunteers who write and edit Wikipedia's articles, unlike readers who simply read them." If there is a distinction between contributor and editor to be found there, it is that contributors create articles and editors work on them. It isn't the same distinction at all. Personally I think this confusion of definitions is a self-inflicted injury. Zerotalk 15:45, 11 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is not true that contributors create articles. The World Health Organization is a contributor to Wikipedia. See c:Category:World Health Organization COVID-19 disinformation infographics for some of the organization's contributions. The WHO is not, however, an editor; the organization itself does not edit articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I beg to disagree. WHO is a contributor to Commons (a "commoner"?:-) (and an editor there as well), and Wikipedians just harvest the fruits of their labor. Lembit Staan (talk) 22:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
because you can "contribute" (e.g., uploading images, operating a bot) without "editing" -- this is the same as to say that you can operate an excavator without digging a hole - i.e., a little sense to say so, unless you are a lawyer. Lembit Staan (talk) 22:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
> because you can "contribute" (e.g., uploading images, operating a bot) without "editing"
In Wikipedia's term, uploading images and operating a bot both count as editing. You can view the history of a image and see the "edits" history. You can also see a lot of edits by bots in the history pages.
The only ways to contribute without editing I can think of off the top of my head are donating money to Wikipedia and promoting Wikipedia on other media. Betty (talk) 04:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • All editors are contributors - not all contributors are editors. Blueboar (talk) 16:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    • User:Blueboar: Sure, there is no doubt in terms of dictionary definitions. But we'd like to figure out what the difference is in the context of wikipedia. BTW, can you point at a couple wp-contributors who are not wp-editors ? Lembit Staan (talk) 23:09, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Also, there are Wikipedia users and Wikipedia:Users. Lembit Staan (talk) 22:34, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Who are Wikipedia:Vandals: Wikipedians, editors, contributors or users? Lembit Staan (talk) 22:34, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Also, I've seen quite a few sockpuppets who edit only talk pages. Who they are? (besides being trolls) Lembit Staan (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Also there is a term "account", a shorthand for "user account", which is not the same as "user", right? But sometimes "user account" is shorthanded to "user", as in "an autoconfirmed user is an account that..." Lembit Staan (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Is bot an editor or an editor's tool, like,.. er... excavator? Because sure thing every bot is a user, e.g., User:InceptionBot is among my best friends :-) By the way, even if User:InceptionBot is not an editor, but sure thing it is a valuable contributor, because [User contributions for InceptionBot it has more daily contributions than most of us] :-).Lembit Staan (talk) 23:09, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

After the dust settles, we may want to update Wikipedia:Glossary, which say: "Editor - Anyone who writes or modifies Wikipedia articles. That includes you. Other terms with the same meaning: contributor, user." But it does not say who Wikipedian is. :-) Lembit Staan (talk) 22:40, 12 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

For those of you that still have questions and want to know more in details my way of working, feel free to read the second link Wikipedia_talk:Protection policy and click "Show" Extended content. — Antoine Legrand (talk) 09:42, 13 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To improve the wording of the first sentence on WP:Wikipedians, I would suggest:

"The editors, also called contributors on Wikipedia, are known as Wikipedians and, these, are the community of volunteers who write and maintain Wikipedia articles, unlike readers who simply read them."

I think this is a much more "polished" first sentence. Please, bear in mind that most of the people navigating Wikipedia may have never heard about Wikipedians before, even more those clicking on the term because they want to know more about it! From experience, even if "Wikipedian" is present on Wikipedia it is not an overall present term. So I think that beginning the sentence with a well-known word is better. When I wrote that according to Merriam-Webster and Wiktionary "editors" and "contributors" are not synomyms, several long-term editors argued that it is well known "on Wikipedia", that editors=contributors. So let's stress this, by writing: "...also called contributors on Wikipedia..." and not simply "Editors, also called contributors, are known as Wikipedians...". I use who "write and maintain" and "community of volunteers" inspired by the first sentence on Wikipedia. Maybe my suggestion can even further been "polished" by a native English speaking editor (I am not sure to properly link "community of volunteers" to Wikipedians!). — Antoine Legrand (talk) 13:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Discuss how many angels dance on the end of a pin all you want, A.L., but stop mass-changing pages to fit your idiosyncratic impulses. EEng 16:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, nobody seems to care to discuss the issue here, and therefore he has rights to do what he is doing, unless this leads to something harmful. And his edits loo "mass changing" only in his contrib history. In fact, did didnt change that many pages. Lembit Staan (talk) 19:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And I have the right to change it all back, which I'm doing. This compulsive ironing out of synonyms and connotations is ridiculous. Paging Johnuniq, whose edit summary in reverting A.L. several days ago was ignored by him. EEng 22:27, 15 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The proposed sentence "The editors, also called contributors on Wikipedia, are known as Wikipedians and, these, are the community of volunteers who write and maintain Wikipedia articles, unlike readers who simply read them" is not grammatical English, let alone idiomatic, and lacks both the clarity and the brevity of "Wikipedians are volunteers who contribute to Wikipedia by editing its pages, unlike readers who simply read the articles." Good editors communicate without tripping readers up with faulty grammar and convoluted sentences, especially in the very first sentence of an article. Editing Wikipedia articles is great training in this and I strongly recommend gaining experience in collaboratively editing the actual encyclopedia before rewriting the community's guidelines and internal information pages. NebY (talk) 19:45, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My sentence was only a "suggestion" and at the time it was made the new lead had not yet been published. My sentence was made in reaction of (see above) (User: Zero0000): However that page just makes the confusion worse: "Wikipedians (Wikipedia's editors and contributors) are the volunteers who write and edit Wikipedia's articles, unlike readers who simply read them." I totally agree that the sentence published today is a big improvement, however it is lacking to educate newcomers by telling them in a second or third sentence that they will never be referred as "volunteer that edits" Wikipedia, and not so often as Wikipedians but rather mainly as editors or as contributors. In the previous version of the lead, as cited in my post, "(Wikipedia's editors and contributors)" were present. — Antoine Legrand (talk) 21:16, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"My sentence was only a "suggestion"" It was a strikingly bad suggestion, worse than the existing text and inherently bad English, whatever it "was made in reaction of" (sic). Please acknowledge that. The current lead is not "lacking to educate newcomers" (sic); we don't need to tell people we won't call them aeroplanes and we don't need to tell people we won't call them "volunteers who edit" - and besides, we will often call ourselves volunteers, with some asperity when we see time wasted by disruption. Again, please get some experience reading and writing English encyclopedia articles and indeed, English in general. NebY (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Don't tell ___ what to do. Fun81 (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Lead sentence[edit]

@Jc37 I disagree with the changes made on the page. Contributors and editors are missing from the definition... and MUST be present. Volunteers is too vague. We are editors and contributors "before" being volunteers. Wikipedians is often a wikilink in different articles on Wikipedia and visitors that want to know more about the term only learn that we are people giving some time for Wikipedia as volunteers. Also, editors and contributors are talking each other using "editor" or "contributor" before using "Wikipedian". I thought we first had to discuss here to find a "consensus" among volunteers editors before publishing a new version... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antoine Legrand (talkcontribs)

Someone who edits is an editor, someone who contributes is a contributor. Simple English usage. The focus of this page is Wikipedians, and what that means. I simplified the lead to make it clearer and readable to everyone.
As I now read the above, I think your focus on adding the precise word "editor" and/or "contributor" to every policy page is rather pedantic, and honestly more than a touch POV pushing disruption. And if you don't think so, I suggest you may want to check WP:AN/I archives to see how the community has addressed such things in the past. For example, I've seen bot users not only lose the privilege to use bots, but getting outright banned over such things.
At the moment, I don't care enough about this to really concern myself much about it, but please be aware, if it is deemed that your edits are causing disruption, some uninvolved admin may decide to enact sanctions. - jc37 13:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Please could you update: "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors." > "It contains the advice or opinions of one or more editors."

"editors" versus "contributors" score (to make realize overwhelming "editor" usage, and thus that "editor" must be privileged).
Some examples:
Wikipedia:Essays: 8 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" (I edited the page to add 1 x "contributor"; to state "contributor=editor")
Category:Wikipedia_essays: 141 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Wikipedia_essays: 6 x "editors" versus 2 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The value of essays: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:The difference between policies, guidelines and essays: 9 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors"
Wikipedia:Don't cite essays or proposals as if they were policy: 5 x "editors" versus 0 x "contributors" + Template:Essay 1 x "contributor"

So there are over 2000 essays. Most of them showing only 1 occurence of "contributor" on their page (because of Template:Essay transclusion). This can "confuse" newcomers, readers, non-native English speaking people if they don't know that "contributor=editor". — Antoine Legrand (talk) 22:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Just speaking for myself, I am really losing my patience with your ridiculous preoccupation with this. If you keep it up then you, specifically, aren't going to be an editor, contributor, user, reader, Wikipedian, or anything else around here much longer. Now put a lid on it. EEng 22:55, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In English, it's helpful and retains interest if we switch freely between near-synonyms as appropriate. If we don't, an occasional use can disturb the readers, who may fear that some important distinction is being made. Your proposed restrictions of our vocabulary would be actively harmful. Now please read Wikipedia:Competence is required and follow the advice above. NebY (talk) 23:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)Reply[reply]